Ship design
In Beta 5 we only considered four predefined types of ships: Ground Assault ships, fighters, cruisers and battle cruisers. Moreover, any technological advance which improved ship characteristics was immediately available on all ships once the technology was implemented.
This system is very simple and easy to manage, both for game internals and players. However it lacks a great deal of flexibility and it isn’t very realistic. We’ve also had a lot of requests around new types of ships to be added in the game, to increase interest.
Since we are very attached to designing a realistic game universe, we thought a bit more of the concept of ships. A ship is mainly a hull inside which and on which are installed various categories of equipment. The different types of ships we were proposing so far were mainly predefined sets of hull and equipment.
To increase the possibilities in the game, we merely considered it would be way more fun to have players define their own ships, using predefined parts, than just provide them with predefined designs as in Beta 5.
Therefore Beta 6 will feature a real ship design system, where players can assemble their own ship categories, using parts such as hulls, generators, engines (normal and hyperspace), control systems (for biological ships), weapons, defenses, communication devices, jamming devices, navigation systems, detection systems, hangar bays (to carry smaller ships through hyperspace) or ground assault modules. The number of parts which can be integrated in a design is only limited by the total size of these parts compared to the hull size, and can be increased even more through a set of miniaturisation technologies.
Along these regular pieces of equipment, some special modules provide very advanced abilities, but at a high cost both in room aboard the ship, resources and time to produce. These include special weapons and defenses with a tremendous effect on enemy fleets and planets, cloaking systems, etc.
Each category of ship parts of course features different levels or upgrades, which allow for the design of hundreds of different ship categories. Some predefined designs are of course available for those who don’t have time to play around with ship design, but these predefined ships might not be enough when facing carefully crafted ships in battle.
What do you think of the ship design possibility?
Do you think it is too complex for an online game?
Do you think it could bring new possibilities to the game?
What kind of features would you see associated with ship design:
- exchange of designs among players as long as the one receiving the design has the required technologies?
- association of a picture among a list of available predefined pictures or from uploaded pictures (moderated pictures in the last case)?
- upgrade / downgrade from one design to another for all ships belonging to a design on a per empire / orbited planet / fleet / ship basis?
- other features suggestions?
Dav:
this is a great idea,
February 17, 2008, 10:21 amDav:
oh just another thing i thought of maybe after you attack and win against another players fleets if they have techs for their ships that you dont have theres like a 25% chance or so to get that tech from downed ships, it goes up by how much of the fleet you destroy
February 17, 2008, 10:43 amTSeeker:
@Dav, there is actually an attack strategy (we’ll post more about these later) which allows you to do just that.
February 17, 2008, 10:56 amCyliis:
Ok… this is amazing! Being able to do this will add a great element to the game. I would like to see design implementation down to a fleet size basis. Per ship is pushing it a bit. Then comes the question of what happens when you merge two fleets? Would need to think on that.
Predefined pictures are ok, I do not like the idea of uploaded pictures. I know you say that they are moderated, but I think it would be easier for everyone if it just weren’t allowed period. Also, I think that uploaded pictures would make for a longer load time? Correct me if I’m wrong.
Exchange of designs should definitely be allowed. No reason why not. I do not feel that giving your allies even more control over your fleets (i.e. allowing them to change your designs) would help to create a more active environment. People can set up their own designs. When 1 person is doing everything for 2 or more people, it might as well be multiing.
February 17, 2008, 12:47 pmTSeeker:
@Cyliis,
Regarding your first point, designs are actually “ship categories”, so your fleets would be composed of, say, 20 “Cyliis’ overpowering fighter”, 4 “Cyliis’ groovy carrier”, and so on… You wouldn’t have to create a design every time you want to build a ship (that would of course be insane). Merging wouldn’t be a problem at all.
Regarding uploaded pictures, I tend to hesitate a lot on this one. The load time wouldn’t be much bigger (it only requires bandwidth, not processing power - and the server has a lot of the former). However, I do agree on the fact that it would probably lower the overall quality of the game and add quite a bit of work for us admins… So yeah, I don’t know.
Exchanging designs should only be possible with players who have the required techs, of course (no point in giving someone a ship design if he can’t even build it). However, if you buy ships from someone who has better techs than you, it should be possible to reverse-engineer it (or at least part of it). And I personally think that yes, it should be up to players to create their own ship designs, although some of the TAs should be able to “switch” between designs.
February 17, 2008, 12:55 pmju:
To precise a bit more around what TSeeker said. A ship design is being able to create new classes of ships like the fighter, cruiser, etc. we have now. What you’d end up with is your personal version of a cruiser with what you want to have on it regarding weapons, defenses, hull, etc.
I also tend to consider a list of default pictures to choose among should be enough but I wanted to have more input on the topic and see what players thought about it.
I didn’t think of allowing for instance TAs to modify your own designs but it might be something which could be considered on a limited scale of course. This would be part of the new features around trusted allies we have in mind and which we should talk about in the blog later on. As you pointed it out however there should be limits to that in order to avoid multiing.
February 17, 2008, 1:01 pmCyliis:
I understood what was meant by “designs”. What I’m saying is in response to this statement that was made: “upgrade / downgrade from one design to another for all ships belonging to a design on a per empire / orbited planet / fleet / ship basis?”.
Now this brings up another question. Will you be able to have multiple designs of the same class in the same fleet?
February 17, 2008, 1:50 pmju:
If by class you mean ships with the same hull, then the answer is yes…
February 17, 2008, 1:54 pmTSeeker:
Oh.
Well, regarding upgrading / downgrading, it seems important to me that you can choose to change a few of the ships’ designs - otherwise you’ll end up splitting the fleet or waiting if you don’t have enough money.
And regarding fleet composition: anything goes as long as it’s under the fleet size limit (bigger ships take more “room” tho). So yeah, you can have a few fighter-class ships with missiles, a few with beam weapons, etc…
February 17, 2008, 1:54 pmCyliis:
ok, awesome. Now what do you mean by fleets size? What sort of limitations will we be seeing?
February 17, 2008, 2:07 pmTSeeker:
There is another post in the queue about this, but basically, we’re tired of the “pissing contest” element of fleets that are composed of millions of ships (very Hyperiums-ish conception of things). The idea would be that a planet will have a fleet that’s something like 100 small ships, a dozen medium-sized ships and a few - if any - really big ones.
February 17, 2008, 2:12 pmCyliis:
you said a “planet”. Now, you can have a certain amount of ships per planets? or did you mean to say player?
February 17, 2008, 2:14 pmTSeeker:
The amount of ships / fleets you can manage will depend on two technologies and on the amount of planets you have, yes. The higher your level in communications technologies or logistics technologies, the more ships per fleet or fleets you can have. Planet also increase the amount of ships you can control, as they act as control centers.
What I just said was more of a general “scale” comment - it’s not because I said “ships / planet” that it means the ships will have to orbit that planet.
February 17, 2008, 2:20 pmCyliis:
but fleet size will be restricted to how many planets you have. Correct? And of course those technologies. And only 2?
February 17, 2008, 2:21 pmju:
The only two technologies means two technologies branches in the graph, the same way we now have arcologies / self sustained arcologies / singularity housing. So you’ll have perhaps a dozen communication technologies increasing your abilities in that field and another dozen in the logistics area.
Answers the question?
PS: in Beta 6, when we talk of technology X, don’t consider we are talking about one single tech. Usually we’re referring to a whole branch linked with the technological topic and the count is around 12 techs per branch as a rough estimate.
February 17, 2008, 2:26 pmCyliis:
Yes it does. Glad to hear that’s what you meant.
February 17, 2008, 2:31 pmBuiltom:
One thing that I’m intersted about is how many blueprints will we be able to make? Will the default blueprints (For instance, Missile Fighter) be able to be changed/take up a space where we would otherwise be able to make our own?
So something like.. 20 blueprints total, and along the top/bottom there would be links to default blueprints showing how some of the ships should look, what they would have, how much it would cost, etc.
February 17, 2008, 2:35 pmju:
How many blueprints? Lots and lots and lots… No limit to the number except your imagination and design limits (like hull sizes).
February 17, 2008, 2:42 pmDefault designs will be available among the others of course.
We intend to set up a design management tool to allow you to obsolete crappy design / delete designs from your list / flag a design as an upgrade for another design and so on…
TSeeker:
First of all, I don’t think there will be a limit on the amount of blueprints one can make.
Regarding changing existing blueprints, you will not be able to “edit” them per se unless you have no ships using the blueprint in question. However, you will always have the ability to create a new blueprint from an existing one.
Blueprints would show just about everything there is to know about a specific type of ship, including (but not limited to) normal space speed, HS speed, weapon efficiency in all 3 weapons categories (and the same for defenses), etc.
February 17, 2008, 2:43 pmBuiltom:
Ah, sounds nice then.
Question about the defenses, if you don’t mind answering: will ships be able to defend other ships as well as itself? Or will the defenses only defend itself, and all the other ships must do the same?
For instance, say one defense is shooting the thing before it reaches you, the other to increase resistance in the ships armour. This ship, would it be able to assist other ships by attempting to shoot the incoming fire towards them, or would it simply defend itself? As for the armour resistance, you can’t really “defend” another ship with it.
February 17, 2008, 3:15 pmTSeeker:
Defenses will only ever defend the ship they’re installed on. Even for missile defenses - the onboard AI would only target the missiles targeted at the ship itself. Of course it is a whole different matter for planetary defenses
February 17, 2008, 3:19 pmRendesh:
With regard to defenses, surely there could be ships who sole purpose is to provide a defence for the rest of the other ships in the fleet. Like with missles, they could be a ship that causes missles to be targetted at it rather than any of the other ships. The trouble is it’s now a guarenteed death…just an idea.
February 17, 2008, 4:00 pmTSeeker:
Actually, that is a different matter - “which ship does what” is what we call battle strategies. We will post later on about these, but we are still working on a list at the moment.
February 17, 2008, 4:01 pmLemorsa:
I think this is all a great idea, only, there would absolutely have to be a quick builder, otherwise, it would just be way to tedious…
February 18, 2008, 12:09 amCyliis:
I assume there would be. It’s a great feature in B5. Very convenient. It makes life far easier.
Also, will “star bases” have hull space and customizable weapons systems? And will you be able to move them from one planet to another?
February 18, 2008, 6:17 amju:
There will be a quick builder.
Space stations are also planned with a similar system as for ships. But not only weapons and defenses can be put on a space station.
February 18, 2008, 9:18 amWe haven’t considered moving them but i’m not sure it’s worth it. They’re not supposed to have a propulsion system and they are massive. I’m not sure it would be realistic to have them flying around.
Rendesh:
I think that space stations should be able to be moved…or at least moved to a system and not be able to move again if that makes sense, since they would have propulsion systems, but not ones designed for moving hence, exceptionally slow.
February 18, 2008, 10:04 amju:
I don’t see what it would bring (being able to move space stations). In what circumstances would it be interesting to do it?
February 18, 2008, 10:32 amI don’t see the point in having space stations with hyperspace engines: they would simply be the same kind of stuff as the biggest ships hence not bringing much to the game play. Without hyperspace engines they would be confined inside a stellar system. If the goal of moving is to protect it against enemies it then doesn’t bring anything: it can be found and destroyed as well around the next planet.
Rendesh:
The reason behind moving it is that if they take a long while to make on a planet that isn’t heavily military as such (although I know the ideas changing), it might be quicker to build it on a military planet and move it from there to somewhere else in the system. I hope that makes sense. Also there is the possibility of upgrading it.
February 18, 2008, 10:46 amTSeeker:
Space stations are not limited to purely military purposes. As such, all of a planet’s factories contribute to making one. In addition, one could assume the only propulsion system a space station has is “just enough to prevent it from falling back to the planet”. As such, it would take years for the station to move.
February 18, 2008, 10:48 amju:
I think the “military planet” concept is a something which has to be forgotten of. It’s a very bad Hyperiums habit which doesn’t make any sense. It’s a strategy which has its limitations, mainly that it has a single point which makes you weak. In design of the game we don’t have to think in matters of strategies which are the way players interact with the game. We have to think of what we should put in place so that the range of possible strategies is wide enough, nothing more. Our design shouldn’t be directed towards particular strategies to make them convenient. It has to cope with building up a logical and realistic universe as a whole.
February 18, 2008, 11:02 amLemorsa:
I agree, because the problem is, if a player makes one, and loses it, that player is kinda screwed… obviously.
Also, even if you could move a space station, it would be slow, and one could just move his or her fleets much quicker than the station, or just build more.
February 19, 2008, 3:54 amwiles9:
What do you think of the ship design possibility?
I love the template idea of building your own ship. Great. Graphics? Fun, but not really worth it, unless you start investing big money eh! Customising ships, investing time/money/research into best designs should have some say in bonuses etc.
I remember playing.. command and conquer, and won using a strategy of building a lot of these real good but expensive guys. Only worked sometimes, but it made for a strategy. This makes it better than just my 100 fighters vs your 75 fighters for sure.
Do you think it is too complex for an online game?
Depends how complex you make it no?? A few tests will soon find that out. Maybe make a player only be allowed to have 10 templates, and if he wants to design a new ship, he has to get rid of one? (But then what do you do with ships already built??_)
Do you think it could bring new possibilities to the game?
Aye lots.
What kind of features would you see associated with ship design:
exchange of designs among players as long as the one receiving the design has the required technologies?
-> Not bad.
I don’t think we should introduce graphics, no point unless you can compete with even games like Descent.. I don’t know much in this area. But unless its real good i prefer using my imagination.
March 12, 2008, 11:49 pmju:
i don’t think we need to limit the number of templates. It’s up to the player to manage them and obsolete crap templates. As for ships based on an obsolete design, it’s up to the player to decide: retire them, upgrade them to a new design, keep them as is…
March 13, 2008, 7:29 am