A reshaped universe
While Beta 5 universe is very simple to manage, with a grid of 6 planets systems or nebulae which expands when needed, it poses several problems.
It isn’t very realistic and we have always been attached to have a universe which would be as close to reality as possible or which could function in a logical way.
Indeed, having planets which are all equivalent to each other, having stellar systems which always have the same number of planets and are so regularly organised in the universe or having a universe which is only a plane and not a 3D structure isn’t realistic.
Moreover, travel times to go from one side to another are getting enormous when the universe gets bigger. For now it is still manageable since the player base remains small. But what if we manage to attract more players?
Therefore we definitively had to rethink the shape of the universe to have it solve these various issues.
This implied including various types of planets, be it on the size or environment point of view. Stellar systems had to include a random number of planets. The shape of the whole universe had to be less regular and had to include a notion of volume and not only plane. We also needed means to go faster from farther locations.
While we were at it, we could also include concepts we had thought of for Beta 5 but didn’t include at the time, such as stellar objects other than just planets, nebulae and planetary remains, for example asteroid belts.
This lead us to design a Beta 6 universe divided into layers. A layer is a roughly circular area containing a set of objects such as star systems, nebulae or black holes. Each layer has a Z coordinate, which indicates where to place the layer on the map. The only normal way to go from a layer to another is through a supergate. A graphical representation of an example layer is presented below (click the picture to get more explanations).
Various types of stellar objects can be found in each layer. Star systems are basically composed of a star which can be orbited by a varying (but limited) number of planets, planetary remains or asteroid belts. Nebulae are dense clouds of gas floating in space.
Black holes are singularities in the structure of space-time. They can occur naturally, which is fortunately rare, and can appear because of the use of devices related to a very advanced technology.
Finally, supergates allow fleets to fly from a layer to another. Supergates cannot be built; they are leftovers of an ancient civilization, which connect layers in the universe. They occupy whole systems, a bit like nebulae, and are indestructible.
What do you think of this new shape of the universe?
Is it too complex to apprehend?
What do you think of the list of considered objects? Would you add something else (along nebulae, black holes, supergates, stellar systems including planets, asteroid belts and planetary remains)?
Considering supergates can be “controlled” by alliances, what kind of features would you associate with this supergate control?
Dav:
From X2? well it works well in that game so it should be good for beta 6, is there also going to be a jump drive that will let you jump across the universe for a cost?
February 17, 2008, 10:46 amju:
There won’t be a jump drive per se. What we have in mind is a drilling technology which allows to go from one layer to another without using supergates but the cost will also tremendous, and not only in time and resources. This topic is one of the ones we plan on giving more informations about in a few days.
February 17, 2008, 10:58 amCyliis:
I love the idea of having layers. At the moment, I do not like the idea of supergates to get from one to the other. This creates far too many restrictions on movement. Also, if you were trying to make the game seem more realistic, in what context are these layers? Galaxies? Then supergates make sense I suppose.
I do not think Supergates should be able to be controlled, either. If you go through a supergate from one side, do you have to fight what’s on the other side before you can get out? What if an alliance takes over a layer completely, wants you out of it, but controls the supergate so you can’t leave with your remaining fleets, and retain the resources you’ve spent so long to attain? Maybe add controls to the supergate that an alliance can set so that certain players are allowed through?
Personally, I’d like to see this done without supergates and to just make the universe 3D with a z-coordinate. I do understand that this would be very difficult to do.
These are my current opinions regarding this topic, but as you said there will be more information given in a few days, so we’ll see if anything changes my mind.
February 17, 2008, 12:35 pmju:
The size of layers being what it is, each layer wouldn’t be a galaxy but more like a cluster of stars. The distance between clusters being what it is we considered travel time between them without supergates would be enormous, thus impossible to accomplish in the duration of a round.
On the restriction on movements point of view, we intend to put scripting abilities around fleets movements. Therefore travel through a supergate network could be automated. You’d only have to say “go to planet xyz” the same way you do know. On a user point of view, the use of several supergates in the process would be transparent on the route definition point of view.
Given the information provided you raised pretty good points. However the notion of control over supergates we have is way less strict than what you consider. What is linked for us to the control of a supergate isn’t the ability to block the way. It is merely the possibility to install star bases in the surroundings of the supergate. Travel would always be possible but the star bases around the supergates could provide defenses / tolls / diplomatic outposts etc. and this in a limited fashion. Some cloacking devices should help go through undetected while detection devices should try and find fleets passing through.
It might of course be an issue to have whole fleets standing by next to supergates to block the way but it would require all members of the alliance to have everyone else in the universe set as enemy and I don’t think this would really happen. In my opinion fleets surrounding supergates and blocking the way would only become a new part of the game strategy.
February 17, 2008, 12:50 pmju:
As an add-on to my last reply. Another thing to consider is the limits on empire sizes and fleets we intend to have in Beta 6, which are really the opposite of Beta 5 (and that I don’t think we’ve talked about yet).
Regarding empires:
The idea would have empire with a size measured in hundreds of planets and not around 12. As such, a layer and even a set of layers would end up being one single player territory and not that of an alliance.
Regarding fleets:
Current ships counts are completely non realistic and we intend to have fleet size limited to something like a hundred of fighters size ships, a dozen medium size ships like cruisers and a few if any huge ships. The idea would also to limit the number of fleets each player can control, this being linked to techs and number of planets.
In such a setting i don’t think it is realistic to consider all supergates leading to an alliance’s territory can be efficiently blocked unless it has been carefully thought by the alliance leader, which should be very very time consuming (go through all supergates in alliance layers and see which ones connects to out of alliance territory)…
February 17, 2008, 1:29 pmCyliis:
First of all, I would like to see a post specifically about the new empire size (I’m sure you have it in mind).
Also, if someone will have an entire layer to themselves, do the layers only go up and down? Or can they also go side to side? So when you’re going “up” you can go through this supergate and travel through that person’s territory, or you could go through that supergate and travel through this other person’s territory. Could be made into a more complex network than simply up and down.
February 17, 2008, 2:01 pmTSeeker:
@Cyliis,
The exact empire size is yet to determine, as it needs more formulas written than the ones we have at the moment. We only gave a rough estimate, but it could be 50, or it could be 150. We still don’t know.
Ju’s statement that a single player would end up having a whole layer was slightly exagerated, layers would end up supporting about 3 or 4 players (that, again, is a rough estimate). We can easily vary layer sizes.
Supergates don’t go “up and down”. They are connected to supergate networks, and a network only has about a dozen exits - and never two exits in the same layer. In addition, the exits of two different networks are not always in correlation, which means that you can have networks A, B and C on layer 0, A, C and D on layer 1, B, C and D on layer 2, and so on. The more layers there are, the more complex it gets.
February 17, 2008, 2:07 pmju:
On empire sizes: nothing specific has been defined yet. We’re merely at the scale level for now. Of course we’ll post about it when we have more precise ideas on the subject.
On supergate networks: what we’ve posted here is a simplified version of the exact system. The idea is to have each supergate belonging to a network, with several networks in the universe. The set of layers directly linked by the same supergate network is predefined and the time to go from one layer to any other in the same network is fixed. You only have to cross layers when you want to go from one network to another, thus having to use another supergate linked to another network. The idea is each layer has several supergates linked to different networks. So it’s more like an hypergraph than only going up and down…
February 17, 2008, 2:08 pmCyliis:
Will you be able to choose which exit you take when you go through a supergate? Or will you randomly come out in a different layer? Maybe make it so it’s random until you have certain technologies?
I like your networking plan.
February 17, 2008, 2:18 pmTSeeker:
Well, you will actually need techs to use supergate networks. The first level of tech will allow you to use them …
But yeah, your suggestion of “exiting at random” could be used - although I don’t think it shouldn’t be completely random. Maybe additional tech levels would reduce the probability of your fleet exiting in the wrong place.
February 17, 2008, 2:23 pmBuiltom:
That would be a rather interesting, but also extreamly annoying, addition to the game. Say for instance you’re bringing your fleet back through a supergate for repairs/merging with another fleet/upgrading, and suddenly you’re in the middle of a hostile layer. The fleet could have to spend days trying to get back into a layer controlled by them.
Perhaps a technology, much like the Hyperspace Beacon tech in B5, allows you to put anchors by the supergates in your area/under your control, that friendly fleets could focus on and so know where to exit.. Although I think randomly popping out anywhere would be a nice addition to the beginning of the game, and as you progress technologically you get to the point where you only go off course in every 1 out of 1000 trips. You shouldn’t be able to specify where to go out at newbie level: you should either be attempting to take the layer/section of the layeror running for your life, both of which don’t require you to know in depth details of supergates and where to get out.
February 17, 2008, 2:57 pmTSeeker:
As I said, it shouldn’t be “too” random - by that I meant that in any case you shouldn’t be in a situation where you never know which gate you will end up at. Your knowledge of the supergate technology, when perfected, should lead you where you want to go with almost 100% certainty.
I disagree regarding the fact that a newbie shouldn’t be able to specify his destination. Two reasons for that.
1) The supergates are a complex, ancient technology built with a purpose - this purpose being to allow ships to navigate from one layer to another in a deterministic manner. If you never know where you’re going to end up, then there is no point. However, since the technology is far too complex for you, you would be making mistakes when using it and that’s whence the randomness would come from. The more you know about it, the lesser the chances of your ending up in the wrong place.
2) On the coding point of view, it adds an “exceptional case” which doesn’t bring much to the game.
February 17, 2008, 3:04 pmCyliis:
I do like Builtom’s idea about having an anchor similar to B5’s hyperspace beacon, though, as you said the gates were made with the purpose of traveling to specific locations.
Instead, maybe rather than the “beacons” make the destination more stable, instead, maybe supergates with a “beacon” on them under the control of a TA would make travel time less, more maybe the expense of traveling less.
February 17, 2008, 3:21 pmTSeeker:
I like this idea as well, although travel time reduction should be small (normal travel time is short anyway).
February 17, 2008, 3:24 pmBuiltom:
What I ment when saying newbies shouldn’t be really caring about it is, if they’re running away from someone intent on killing their only fleet, which is barely enough to take a planet, would they really be fussy where they popped out?
And I didn’t mean the newbie shouldn’t be able to say “I want to go here!” just that should shouldn’t expect to get there anytime soon. Sure they may want to go to that really cool layer full of friendly people, but their lack of technology would limit them.
That also brings up another point, will a fleet be able to act as a form of guide to another fleet? Say I have a fleet capable of Hyperspace Travel, and want to migrate to a layer an alliance mate is on. However, I don’t have sufficient technology to be able to know where to exit. Will I be able to follow the friendly fleet, and then that fleet could take me there? Then again, it could lead me into the middle of a fight, in which case I would get obliterated.
I would assume if you tried to follow a neutral/hostile fleet they would either warn you to stop, or attack you.
February 17, 2008, 3:27 pmju:
The idea is interesting but you’re getting into something which would be too complex to manage. We can’t on one hand expect to have a game answering the “not too many options” requirement that you yourself pointed out and to have such advanced features as “I might not be able to go where i want to go but if bob is with me I should get there”.
Another thing to keep in mind is supergate travel is already an advanced technology. No newbie will even have supergate travel abilities. And once you’re able to go through supergates you should be able to do it with enough confidence in your end point to actually do something interesting with it.
February 17, 2008, 3:33 pmRendesh:
An idea, would be to have two kinds of supergates as such. One which are slow and ones which are fast. Now, the level of technology to travel down a slow lane would be a lower than that of a fast lane. Also in addition these would be more numerous representing a place where systems would be all connected with slow lanes, but the very rare fast lane could allow better travel between two systems futher away. Also in addition to this, it would mean that alliances would fight over the control of the fast gates more than the slow gates.
In relative speaking sense though, travel between the fast gates, although fast is still slow as your going between two systems.
February 17, 2008, 3:48 pmTSeeker:
While I agree with the fact that it could be an interesting feature, it seems to me that it brings a bit too much complexity to the universe’s structure (specifically, generating the universe in a relatively balanced manner would become a huge headache).
February 17, 2008, 3:54 pmCyliis:
But then would the slow supergates be connected to the fast ones as well? Or could only slow or fast be connected to a similar type of gate?
A question: Will there be a “fog of war” to this game? At least on a layer level? Maybe you don’t know what the other layers look like until you visit them?
February 17, 2008, 3:55 pmBuiltom:
What I ment in terms of the guide is that you effectively render all control to the other person. At most, this would last between 1-2 hours, and if they enter a supergate you would regain control when they exit the gate.
@Rendesh, sounds interesting. Although, what happens when a fast gate tries to connect to a slow gate? Or the other way around?
It could just be the gates give your fleets a kick up the ass, and depending on which gate you enter would alter your travel speed, the exiting gate does nothing except allow you to exit. This would still maintain the fighting over fast gates more than slow, but both would still be valuable.
February 17, 2008, 3:56 pmTSeeker:
Yes, the game will have a fog of war; however it will be possible for alliance members to share their maps automatically, meaning that, if your alliance mates know some location, then you can know it too (provided you have, as usual, the required communications technologies).
February 17, 2008, 3:57 pmRendesh:
My original suggestion would be to have the slow and fast seperated completely.
February 17, 2008, 3:59 pmju:
Separation of slow and fast supergate networks gets too complex a setting for what it would bring on a gameplay point of view.
February 17, 2008, 4:06 pmYuckwitte:
@ The original post…
Well I think that the universe’s uniform planets in beta 5 were good, in that there is no chance involved in planet selection, they are all the same. Will this, although more realistic, addition bring a greater luck reliance too the game?
Also, if the stellar systems are randomised in relation to chance/star size (are they?), are the different ‘layers’ of the universe also generated by random chance, are they uniform or are they similar to each other in size and content but not the same?
February 18, 2008, 4:58 amju:
@Yuckwitte:
February 18, 2008, 9:10 amThe notion of randomness can be easily twisted and that is what is currently being done in Beta 5. In Beta 5 each system has the same number of planets but the number of turrets is randomized on the different planets of the system. However the total number of turrets in each system remains the same.
The system will be the same for Beta 6 planets. All players will start with a system with the same number of planets and with an equivalent total building size in this system. Moreover it is planned that a an equivalent set of planets will be left free (without any player being able to spawn there) around this starting system.
As for layers they will be more randomized but depending on the number of
planets in each the number of players who will be able to spawn in each will vary a bit.
Lemorsa:
I have a question, what about asteroid fields that limit travel, or maybe create losses while passing through them?
February 22, 2008, 7:13 pmTSeeker:
@Lemorsa - the response to that is in the first paragraph under the picture. All asteroid belts slow down ships in normal space and some of them cause losses, but they do not affect ships in Hyperspace.
February 23, 2008, 7:50 amLemorsa:
Ah, so it is…
February 24, 2008, 6:16 amLegacyWorlds Beta 6 » Blog Archive » Travel and distances (1/5) : basics:
[...] It is therefore necessary to write rules regarding the method used to travel from one location to another, and the distance it corresponds to. In order to do that, the different modes available have to be clearly defined, and the geography of the universe must be described more precisely than the vague definition we posted here earlier. [...]
November 25, 2008, 10:41 am